Philadelphia pastor Jonny Rashid talks about how he uses pop culture in his ministry; what Taylor Swift is looking for; how ‘Seinfeld’ shows some of our worst tendencies; and why people are binge-watching TV shows like ‘House of Cards’ and ‘The Walking Dead.’

Other subjects: What could be the best pop song ever written, a current TV show with an admirable Christian character and what popular TV show most misses an opportunity to include Christianity.

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Say you’ve traveled to another country. When you arrive, you find out people there spend most of their waking time doing one activity. That must be something important, you think.

If we take that scenario to contemporary America, that activity is consuming media. The explosion of at-your-fingertips-technology has made media and popular culture more invasive than ever.

Because there’s so much multitasking of devices, Americans spend the equivalent of 11 hours a day using media, according to a Kaiser study. Other reports say it could be up to 14 hours a day.

So what’s in all of this media? What are the messages? Is there anything spiritual there?

Pastor Jonny Rashid of Philadelphia’s Circle of Hope in Philadelphia is exploring that. As part of four Circle of Hope congregations in Philadelphia, he’s one of a new wave of pastors updating ideas about the emerging church and the urban-based new monastic movement.

For Rashid, it isn’t simply making references to pop culture to bring people in and make Christianity more relevant. It’s also about serving as an alternative to a dominant culture that can leave some people isolated and unfulfilled.

But rather than lashing out at the messages in popular media, Rashid sees an opening to talk about what many people feel is missing in their lives.

People are searching, he feels. And that comes through in pop culture, he says.

Rashid writes a blog “More Than Self-Expression” where he blends pop culture analysis, political and cultural observations and tackles some tough spiritual topics. He’s also part of a YouTube channel where he and four other Circle of Hope pastors field questions from congregation members.

Recently Rashid took some time to talk about how he uses pop culture in his ministry, how he views contemporary American media culture and how it affects his role as a pastor.

You sometimes incorporate pop culture into your sermons and into your blog. Why is that important?

It’s important to be aware of the culture. What are they enjoying? What music are they listening to? What TV shows are they watching? What movies are they watching? For me it’s a way to be more relatable.

Often times Christians develop their own subculture they want people to adopt. So we have our own rock music, our own movies, we even have our own comedians. And so we’re creating an alternative as opposed to learning from this culture and trying to reach out to it.

But I pay attention to pop culture to see where people are going, what they are thinking, and seeing how Jesus is present even in mainstream pop culture.

How do you see God working through pop culture?

I think God uses every avenue he can to get involved. And I think people are created in God’s image. So when we’re being creative, we’re often drawing from that intrinsic nature that God has given us. And for us as Christians, being able to point out where God is in their art is really helpful. It honors them, it helps them to know that they’re on their way. And it also humbles us knowing that we don’t corner the market on how God is expressed.

It reminds me of in The Book of Acts in chapter 17 when Paul ends up in Athens and he wants to relate to the Athenians. So he walks around the town while he’s waiting for his friends to show up. And he sees an altar that says “To An Unknown God” on it and he uses that inscription and says “no, this unknown God is Jesus.” And he helps the people in Athens learn about Jesus because he uses an example from their culture. That’s where I see God in current pop culture and that’s where I want to see him. I want to channel my inner Paul.

Is there God in all of pop culture? Even the most hedonistic or nihilistic songs or movies?

It’s always a mixed bag. No one’s either all good or all bad. No pop culture is either all good or all bad. When we start putting people in those categories we get really limited. Even in the raunchiest stuff I can find God or at least a longing for God.

During the Christmas season some people are really up in arms about participating in what they call the pagan aspect of the holiday: the Christmas tree, the tinsel, the whole bit. When you look at that you don’t see an iota of Jesus in there explicitly, but you do see a longing for joy and happiness which I think Jesus can provide.

I try to be disciplined about what is redeemable. But sometimes it’s very challenging. I don’t make it a point to go through every single pop culture artifact and find God. I think it’s possible, but I’m certainly opportunistic and trying to find the best examples — either the most interesting ones or trying to deconstruct the most popular ones.

When I think about the pop culture that I’m focusing on, I’m trying to reach a generation for Jesus. Generally, I’m going to be focused on what they’re focused on.

Lately I’ve been listening to Taylor Swift‘s “1989” because a lot of my friends and a lot of the people in my environment listen to it.

Since you’re listening to Taylor Swift’s new album what do you make of it?

The thesis of the record is all about love and longing for love and trying to have a long-term relationship and the turmoil about not being able to find that.

Our obsession with companionship and partnership no matter how fleeting it is — whether it’s a one night stand or a long-term relationship — shows that we’re made to be relating to each other. We’re made to be connected. For me, the emptiness in some of Taylor Swift’s music can be fulfilled not only by a serious marriage but also a relationship with God that is expressed in community.

How did this interest in the connection between pop culture and Christianity start for you?

I grew up in a conservative household. My parents thought even going to the movie theater was ‘of the world.’ So I was pretty sheltered for a while. It was contemporary Christian music which got me listening to more mainstream music. And eventually I liked the music so much I started listening to other stuff and enjoying that. Then I carried that judgmental attitude from my parents into my new taste. So I would only listen to music that I thought had a message that I could connect with.

This was in the early 2000’s. So we’re talking about the Iraq War and the U.S. military involvement. And so because I thought Jesus would oppose this war, the art that I consumed were political bands making a message about peace and justice.

Rage Against The Machine was among them, but distinctly, I remember Bright Eyes, Anti-Flag, Bad Religion, NOFX, Rise Against, Against Me!, Alkaline Trio, and Lawrence Arms. I think System of a Down got in there, almost exclusively because of their message, since nu-metal is not my natural proclivity. I basically got into that kind of music since Christian pop punk and ska was so popular — like MxPx and Five Iron Frenzy. The next logical step was the bands that influenced MxPx. It was still my drive for justice that motivated what I consumed.

But now in Philadelphia, I’m something of a missionary. So I need to get to know this culture to be able to redeem it. So it’s not just about my taste. I’m not enslaved to my taste. I can venture beyond what I find personally appetizing and connect with music and media.

Why is pop culture so important to people?

I think they’re bored. I don’t think there’s a big answer beyond that. They have jobs that don’t pay well, they’re drowning in debt, they’re having a difficult time making relationships. They need to occupy their time.

When they feel lonely and isolated, they entertain themselves usually by binge-watching TV shows — which seems to be the most common thing now. A lot of people I know aren’t interested in the latest music, but they do like watching the latest TV shows. I think they’re trying to fulfill themselves, trying not to be bored.

You recently incorporated an episode of ‘Seinfeld’ into a sermon. What do you like about the show?

I love observational humor. The reason comics like Jerry Seinfeld, Louis C.K., and others are effective is that they’re talking to us about experiences that we all have, and so we can relate to them. And the reason I like Seinfeld is that I get it, I understand it, I can relate to it. I know people like that and the situations they deal with.

It’s so interesting to watch how these self-centered narcissistic characters interact with each other. Sometimes the selfishness makes it a challenge to relate to.

In some ways they’re fulfilling our most sinful desires that we’re too polite to fulfill. But when we think about those desires that we have —  to be mean or sarcastic and make jokes at other people’s expense —  I think we are challenged and begin to wonder “Is this what I actually want to be?” and “Is this how I want to live my life”? If not, then it’s “How can God transform me? How can I change?” Sometimes the dark humor in those shows helps change some of the darkness that’s in us.

Whether it’s ‘Seinfeld’ or Taylor Swift’s new album, would you say there’s a yearning or a spiritual hole people are trying to fill?

I think they’re longing for God, connection, and community. And as long as they continue to long, I think we’re in a good place. But lately I’ve been noticing a large degree of nihilism where it’s “What’s the point of even desiring something? Why don’t we just rid of our desire? The world is meaningless anyway.”

And so lately in the post-postmodernist environment, I’ve noticed people lack that yearning. And so when I see it, I really try to grab onto it. But if someone’s depression or poverty is such that they no longer yearn and they’re just going to exist, that’s discouraging. Then we really have our work cut out for us to reinvigorate people to desire something and believe they’re worth love.

What examples of nihilism have you seen in pop culture?

The character that Matthew McConaughey played in True Detective was channeling some nihilist philosophers. He went through a trauma that was so difficult for him that he couldn’t actually desire any longer. He didn’t have a will. He was struggling with that the entire show. He finally gets put on this murder case and it begins to motivate him. And at the end of the show he begins to see within all this darkness is a little bit of light piercing through. It was a very positive ending to what was otherwise a very amoral show.

You see a similar level of nihilism in how we celebrate anti-heroes in TV shows. The best examples of them would be Don Draper on Mad Men, Rick Grimes on The Walking Dead, and Walter White in Breaking Bad.

These characters that we herald don’t have a lot of morality. They create their own morality in the world to cope with their oppressive circumstances. Rick Grimes is a moral cop who becomes angry after his wife dies and his morality shifts and becomes completely relative. Don Draper has a secret identity that he’s trying to protect and he’s literally creating who he is in view of the consequences of his drunken promiscuous life. In Breaking Bad, Walter White is wronged by some of his comrades, gets cancer, and figures out how to be king. When he can no longer be the king scientist he wants to be the king meth dealer.

People create their own realities and their own fulfillment when the world doesn’t do it for them. And so when the world lets them down — which it inevitably will — they move toward postmodernism and relativism and maybe even nihilism.

I think there’s a Christian antidote to that. But rather than reacting negatively to the vulgar characterizations of these people, I think we should look at them and try to figure out how we can actually reach them. Even though these characters are exaggerations, there are people who are dealing with similar circumstances in our neighborhoods and in our world. So some consciousness about how to make that connection is important. So rather than just judging these people, I think we can learn from them.

How do you see representations of Christians in pop culture?

I don’t often see examples of Christians. But there’s the show The Americans set in the 1980’s about Russian spies who live next to an FBI family. The Russian spies have a fake family they’re created. And the really patriotic mother — who is really for The Kremlin — is teaching her kids how to fall in line with her ideology. But one of her daughters gets connected to a youth group and starts to become a Christian.

One thing I do appreciate about this show is even though the parents are challenged by their daughter’s faith, they’re surprised at how the Christians in the show are so pro-peace anti-military, anti-nuclear arms race.

So they begin to give some dignity to the Christians. Especially in the 1980’s when so many Christians were pro-Reagan anti-USSR, pro-nuclear arms, they actually created a group of Christians who are protesters. And that’s a voice you don’t get very often. You usually get the conservative dogmatic religious right perspective.

What have you watched recently that’s interested you?

House of Cards is an interesting show about how evil people can be, And how soulless power and wealth can make you. It’s a really good dark picture of what Washington looks like. It’s something that we don’t often see characterized on news shows but one that we suspect is happening.

I also have been watching The Affair. It’s about a man who makes a choice to leave his family and have an affair. Seeing the human condition there and the importance of needing a commitment, needing a relationship — not just with a spouse but with God.

It is amazing how God is mysteriously absent from Downton Abbey! The Anglican aristocrats and servants would at least have nominal faith. It’s like none exists. The show is ultimately about the end of the aristocracy in England  — or at least the changing of it — but even in the discussions of tradition and progress, God is rarely brought up. I think they miss a major opportunity. But it is still great and interesting story-telling shot beautifully.

What do you see as some major trends in pop culture?

Social construction is where we’re heading. People create their own realities, their own relationships. their own meaning. There’s no longer even a clear protagonist in a TV show. In the music that we listen to there isn’t always a clear morality.

Not only isn’t there a universal meaning given to us by Jesus, there’s not even a worldview that we can ascribe to. We’re all on our own all by ourselves creating our own reality.

I want my church to be an alternative, reach out to the world, affirm what we can, take the good and leave what isn’t good. We need to tear down and destroy but also plant and build.

When God was calling Jeremiah to be a prophet, one of the things God told him to do was to uproot and tear down but he also has to plant and grow and build. As Christians this is the dynamic we need to have.

We can’t become slaves to the culture but we can’t tear down the whole thing. We have to have an alternative. That’s why I have hope. That’s why when I watch these shows and listen to this music that has no soul I have hope because I have something to offer.

You mentioned Paul in Athens in The Book of Acts, but are there other places in the Bible where the popular culture at the time was utilized?

Paul is a good example but Jesus also relates to people using contemporary images and ideas. I think that’s why he hung out with fishermen. And now he understands fisherman culture so he can relate to them. He was a carpenter and he talks about specks of sawdust in your brothers eye and a plank in your own. He’s using images and ideas that the culture understands to help relate to it.

There’s an interesting moment in 1 Corinthians 12 of Paul using this body image that we’re all parts of the body together. And he’s actually quoting a Roman aristocrat who telling the Roman classes they were all part of the Roman body. That even though they didn’t have wealth or resources they were still an important part of the Roman apparatus. An aristocrat was using that image to oppress people and keep them in their place, But Paul was using that as quite the opposite to make us all one, to make us all equal even if we’re diverse. It’s an example of using political pop culture to make a point.

What pop culture has inspired you the most over the years?

Usually I’m most inspired by bands like The Beatles, classic bands that are timeless. I kind of felt obligated to love The Beatles since they have been so influential. Luckily, they live up to the hype.

I remember one week I listened to Revolver on repeat because nothing else was as good. I have problems with how they couldn’t get along long enough to further their influence, how drugs influenced them, and how they eventually kind of just all became New Age-y. I don’t particularly find that inspiring, but “Tomorrow Never Knows?” That might be the best song ever.

Somewhere along the way, David Bazan was really influential to me too. I could relate to his failing faith in a world of artificial evangelicalism, But lately I’ve thought more that his deconstruction just isn’t very helpful.

I’m inspired by music in general. Commercial hip-hop, dub step, political punk rock, indie rock, top 40, shoegaze. It all matters. I try to get interested in all of it mainly to learn, but those genres are the ones I might listen to on the regular—that is when sports radio isn’t on the dial.

My favorite TV show is Seinfeld. When I watch The Wire, I can relate it to North Philadelphia where I live. There are a whole variety of things that inspire me and influence me and encourage me.

But I’m most thankful when I’m inspired by the art that my friends are making and the contribution they’re making. I go to their art openings, I listen to their music. I just wrote about a local band that’s part of our church called Oldermost. They made a music video that inspired me and I wrote about it as well. I don’t always go to pop culture specifically for inspiration, but usually I’m stimulated by most of what I consume.