What are the spiritual themes in the AFI Top 10 movies? Why are these 10 movies admired so much? And is the list all too familiar and predictable?

Of all the Best Movie lists, the American Film Institute (AFI) list carries the most weight.

Why?

Because it’s chosen by the movie world’s elite.

About once a decade, 1,500 film scholars, historians and filmmakers select the best 100 movies ever made. We can say this is a case of the cultural elites on the mountain top telling us what’s important.

But we can shout back up.

To help look over what the AFI says are the 10 greatest movies ever made, I met with John Nelka who hosts the movie show “Cinema Chat” and also writes an insightful movie blog.

It was a fun discussion about some of the film industry’s most sacred cows. It’s liberating talking about movies the establishment views as unassailable. Because some of these movie deserve their acclaim and others don’t.

John and I didn’t agree on everything, but that made it all the more interesting:

1. Citizen Kane

JN: It’s the textbook answer for number one. It’s like reading Shakespeare in school.

I think there’s so much in there. Welles is a genius. But do you relate to it personally? I have a professor friend who said it feels like homework to watch it.

There’s so much in it that’s innovative. But it kind of bugs me that it’s number one because it’s such a safe pick.

JZ: It comes off a bit like an exercise in style and someone flexing their cinematic muscles. It’s kind of a cold movie in some ways because Charles Foster Kane is a cold character. I find myself getting caught up in the camera angles and the sets and not getting involved as much in the story.

JN: I think he’s showing off. But I admire it because he’s being so ambitious. A lot of films, particularly in that time period, aren’t as ambitious stylistically. It’s an example of film as accessible art.

But you’re right. He is a cold character. You feel like he’s someone you never get to know. It’s just a critique of a certain kind of American personality.

JZ: It’s very post-modern in the sense that we don’t really know what the truth is. When they interview everyone about Kane, they all have their different perspectives. Even at the end when the viewer finds out what Rosebud means, we still don’t know the full meaning of it.

There are other movies and novels about the immorality of American tycoons. But if you look at something like The Great Gatsby, Jay Gatsby has more dimensionality than Kane. But I think one of the reasons this movie tops these lists is the post-modernist approach. Because we don’t really know the full truth about him, it seems less sentimental and more edgy to film critics.

What’s the spiritual message?

JN: Kane has a lack of self-awareness.

JZ: He pursued success and lost his soul.

JN: Never really had one in a way.

JZ: He never found himself because he was too obsessed with fame, materialism and success. Even though it’s sad, we don’t feel as sorry for him as we could. There’s no emotional investment.

JN: It’s like when you read something in a newspaper as opposed to it happening to someone you know.

2. The Godfather

JN: It’s well-made but it’s an over-romanticized view of the Mafia. It was the beginning of presenting organized crime that way. It kind of pushes my buttons.

JZ:  I think it’s an incredible movie that’s more about what it takes to succeed in America than a Mafia movie. I think it’s a metaphor for American business or the lengths you’ll go through to preserve your family or your business.

JN: But it’s also a multi-generational melodrama.

And yeah, there’s some really cool sequences and it’s fun to quote things from it, but it makes me feel like I don’t get it. Because people really connect to it, even people who aren’t huge film fans.

I saw the movie The Conversation and I feel like Francis Coppola could have gone in a different direction with his career. I thought that was a better movie than The Godfather.

JZ: I think the first two Godfather movies have aged so well because our society has gotten more and more like the cutthroat world shown in those movies.

I also like how it seems like that mid-point between classic and modern movies. There’s some violence in it that wouldn’t be in classic Hollywood films, but a lot of it is paced like a classic Hollywood movie. There’s not that rat-a-tat-tat in-your-face Scorsese style direction.

What’s the spiritual message?

JN: One of my problems with this is the false sense of loyalty. It’s kind of a glamorized code that’s not even a code. It’s different from samurai movies which have a different sense of honor. Westerns have it too. And it’s kind of perverted here.

JZ: If you want to succeed in America at any cost, you’ll lose your soul — business becomes more important than human relationships.

3. Casablanca

JN: It’s the quintessential classic Hollywood film. It’s got it all: comedy, drama, a great script, lots of character actors, great lead performances.

JZ: Humphrey Bogart is a prototypical American character. He’s reluctant to get involved at first. He’s self-centered, rugged and individualistic. But then he sees the light and becomes more community-oriented.

I’m not so sure about Ingrid Bergman‘s character. She’s this kind of pawn or trophy being tossed back and forth between Rick and Victor Laszlo. I think it’s a guy’s movie. In a way, the real romance is between Bogart’s character and Claude Rains’ character at the end.

JN: It’s an early bromance! (laughs)

But I don’t have a problem with Ingrid Bergman’s character. The immature thing is to say you can’t believe what she did to Bogart. But she did the mature thing and didn’t sell herself out. And Bogart sees that and looks back at his own behavior and realizes she has to be with Victor.

I don’t think she’s being demonized. She’s a strong character. Victor Laszlo is the weak character and the least interesting character in the movie. He’s boring and too serious.

What’s the spiritual message?

JZ: It’s a redemption story. Rick gets out of his depression, self-centeredness and isolation and signs up for the cause. His idealism returns and he stands up and becomes a part of something.

4. Raging Bull

JN: It’s not my favorite Scorsese film.

It is a sort of epic story of a man’s life. I think the performances are good. I don’t necessarily relate to the character, but I don’t know if you’re supposed to.

I don’t think you have to like a character or think they’re good or admirable. I just think they have to be interesting. But I still couldn’t really relate to it.

JZ: I think Scorsese had his peak in the 1970’s with Mean Streets and Taxi Driver which had interesting anti-heroes and seemed authentic. And I liked The Departed because Leonardo DiCaprio‘s character was sympathetic to offset Matt Damon‘s character. Usually Scorsese’s main characters aren’t so likeable.

But overall in this film and so many others he’s done, I think it seems forced —  he’s trying too hard to be edgy. Gangs of New York and Wolf of Wall Street are pretty unwatchable. I’m really tired of the unredeemable hypermasculine characters in movie after movie. Enough already! At least DeNiro was trying to redeem himself in some way in Taxi Driver — even though it was completely twisted.

Despite all the over-the-top and gratuitous stuff and his strong visual style, he’s pretty middlebrow. And this movie’s no different despite the black and white photography.

What’s the spiritual message?

JN: Jake Lamotta is a sort of anti-hero. But you put this false framework into making it a kind of epic — framing it like it’s a Greek tragedy, but it’s not. I didn’t find it tragic, I found it sad. And I think Scorsese being Catholic is putting this false thing up there – is he a martyr figure?

JZ: It’s frustrating because you don’t get a redemption story. He’s violent, insecure and self-obsessed to the end. It’s a deeply cynical worldview.

5. Singin’ in the Rain

JN: I really don’t find most musicals are as a whole hold together well. The Sound of Music has a story that I think stands apart from the music. But most musicals feel like they’re built around the songs. A stage show doesn’t need that but films need something more. That’s why I think so many stage musicals that are turned into films have flopped.

JZ: I don’t think the story itself holds up as well as some other classic musicals like some of the Fred Astaire or Busby Berkeley musicals. But it has some outstanding musical sequences — some of the best ever done on film. They’re iconic and really spectacular.

The story is somewhat interesting with the history of the beginning of talkies and the commercialization of Hollywood. But I think it was picked more for the music and dancing than for the film as a whole. But it does have an incredible sense of optimism that I think people find uplifting.

What’s the spiritual message?

JN: Smile under your umbrella!

JZ: Friendship is really idealized. And finding the right woman. You don’t marry the ditzy startlet; you marry the girl next door. And you have your best friend to dance with, confide in and lift your spirits. It’s kind of wholesome and small-towny in that way.

6. Gone With the Wind

JN: I really didn’t like it and not only for the obvious dated sexism and racism. But I really found Scarlet O’Hara’s character insufferable. I just couldn’t get with it.

Even though it has some really beautiful visual elements, it just isn’t a compelling story to me. It’s the kind of thing where something is considered a classic but that doesn’t mean you can relate to it.

JZ: It’s hard not to like some of the aura of it because it’s classic Hollywood. But it hasn’t aged well.

I’m surprised it’s on the list because it’s a disturbing racist story. I think it’s a romanticized view of slavery and The South which has probably done a lot of damage. Nowhere near what Birth of a Nation did, but I think it’s had a negative impact on our culture when people learn history from a movie like this.

JN: I’m not so sure people pick up on all of that. They might skip over it because they recognize that it was set a long time ago when there were a lot of inequalities. They might just see as a romance.

What’s the spiritual message?

JN: Scarlet is very selfish and spoiled and kind of a horrible person. Not very self-aware.

JZ: I wonder if it’s a cautionary tale. But then again the movie seems to prefer Scarlet and Rhett Butler over the characters that Olivia DeHavilland and Leslie Howard play — who come off as boring and wimpy in comparison.

7. Lawrence of Arabia

JN: It’s very cinematic, it’s very epic. I don’t know how much of the colonial aspects of it got kind of brushed over.

JZ: I think it shows the predisposition by the film elite toward something that appears epic — epic stories, epic landscapes, and a hero that can accomplish so much but has a dark side.

Usually The Searchers shows up on these lists, and I’m surprised it’s not here. I prefer John Wayne‘s more tormented and complex character than the hero/anti-hero dilemma here.

What’s the spiritual message?

JN: There’s probably the whole Colonial aspect of whether he’s a great man or not.

And don’t go to the desert. Not everybody can go to the desert (laughs).

8. Schindler’s List

JN: It’s the only one on this list I didn’t see. I really don’t like Stephen Spielberg at all. He’s technically proficient, but I don’t know if he has a message. He’s not an artist to me. And Schindler’s List seems like you’re forced to watch it like a spoonful of medicine. You feel guilty for not seeing it, but it seems like a kind of command.

No one wants to criticize this movie. And I don’t want to hate on this movie. But he didn’t take any risks making this. He was successful enough to do anything he wanted to do. He wants to be seen as an artist but he has extreme limitations. I give him credit technically but I think ultimately his films are going to be middlebrow.

JZ: I’m not a Stephen Spielberg fan at all, so I’m with you there. But I think this is absolutely his best movie. I think it was a subject he felt strongly about and he didn’t want to botch it.

I think one of the barometers for evaluating a movie is if you feel like you’re a better person for having seen it — even in some small way. And I think in this case after watching this movie you are.

What’s the spiritual message?

JN: You can’t save everybody…

JZ: But you gotta try.

9. Vertigo

JN: I’m not sure why film critics love it so much and think that it’s Hitchcock’s best movie. Is it the level of perversity?

It’s dark — sexually dark. Obviously Hitchcock had his issues with women.

The plot is absurd. But that really doesn’t bother me because all of his plots are kind of absurd if you analyze them. I can’t imagine what it was like to see it at the time because it’s still kind of shocking. The scene with Barbara Bel Geddes showing him the painting – I don’t know if that went over people’s heads or what. Rear Window is a better version of some of the themes in this movie.

JZ: As Hitchcock himself later admitted, Jimmy Stewart was too old to play this role. And I think by this time in his career Hitchcock was getting more sensationalistic and gimmicky.

He was at his peak in the 1940s with movies like Shadow of a Doubt and Notorious. By sometime in the 1950s he seemed to go off the rails. After this movie came Psycho and The Birds which were really disturbing, sensationalistic and misogynistic.

What’s the spiritual message?

JN: The Jungian idea that if you don’t keep your shadow in front of you it’s going to hit you in the back of the head. Meaning he didn’t have a self-awareness about his dark side. And you can argue that’s what Hitchcock is all about.

JZ: To me it’s obsession that’s sinful in its audacity and its darkness. You’re trying to control the world, you manipulate, you’re obsessed. You want to make somebody into somebody you want them to be. You’re trying to play God in some ways with the world.

10. The Wizard of Oz

JN: It’s hard to be objective about it. I don’t really like musicals in general, but I think it’s just about a perfect movie.

I think there’s the level of relating to Dorothy feeling out of place. It’s not a coming of age story, but someone going through a trial or a journey. It has a sense of amazement and magic that movies had before the age of television and the Internet.

JZ: It was my favorite book when I was a kid. So I didn’t see the movie until I was in my 20s because I liked the book so much. I remember being disappointed in it. I didn’t like some of the changes and I thought it was kind of campy. I’ve gotten to like it more over the years because it’s so iconic and I like some of the songs.

It’s very strange how in the movie they made the characters in Oz variations on people in her hometown in Kansas which isn’t in the book at all. That gave it a strange psychological angle to it instead of making it more of an adventure story. I think the book was more grown up, more political, more spiritual.

What’s the spiritual message?

JN: “There’s no place like home.” I think that sums it up.

JZ: They go on this journey, and ultimately the Wizard is a sham and the main characters get these trinkets, these medals, but they’re not important. In the end, it’s really what they learned about themselves on this adventure and the camaraderie on the way.  The journey is more important than the destination.

JN: It’s already there within yourself — and not in a narcissistic way.